Just being honest
Quote from GB on 21.11.2024, 13:12I've been a premium user for a while now and I thought it was time I shared my thoughts about scenic.
Firstly the support from Guido is second to none on any app, that alone a navigation app, truly awesome.
Now for the not so good bits, I went with scenic because I was given the impression from the advertisement it done off the beaten track off road routes, and it works well with the wunderlinq app on my BMW. The later is a definite, it integrates with the wunderlinq better than any other app I have tried, the control with the wheel is great, being able to control your music, zoom in and out, skip waypoints etc without taking your hands off the bars is great.
Now the off road stuff is not so good in my opinion. The only way it can be used off road is as a track follower with no directions, you can only really plan an off road ride using it with so many waypoints it takes forever as it always tries to route you back to a road. If you plan an off road route using say basecamp and send it to scenic it will hit all your waypoints but using roads and not your route. In the UK we have something BOAT's these are Byways Open To All Traffic, these are roads which are on the whole unmaintained and sometimes very narrow and tough to get a bike through, but they are legal roads for all vehicles, the make up part of the Trans Euro Trail, the TET as its known. But if you try and plan a route with them in scenic its nigh on impossible.
Next is clarity, V4 is an improvement but I still think it is behind the clarity of apps like OSMand apple maps. Its a bit unfair to compare OSMand to Scenic but unfortunately I find myself doing that. If I enter an off road event I will often record the track using my old garmin montana or iphone, now if I save this track then load it into OSMand it will actually route me keeping to that track with voice notifications as well, this is great as I don't have to keep looking at the track and can concentrate on the terrain. As you can tell the lack of off road routing is a bug bear for me.
Currently there are definitely routing and travel time issues but I am sure Guido will get them sorted.
But currently with no speed cameras or 3d mode I'm finding it hard to use the app even for road routes.
I'm not finishing on a negative as there is so much to like about Scenic, route sharing with the scenic community is something OSMand can't do and the interface is so much nicer to use on Scenic, the folder system and layout generally is better than other navigation apps.
Once Guido sorts the current issues out and the updates arrive in March it will again be the best bike navigation app available..
I've been a premium user for a while now and I thought it was time I shared my thoughts about scenic.
Firstly the support from Guido is second to none on any app, that alone a navigation app, truly awesome.
Now for the not so good bits, I went with scenic because I was given the impression from the advertisement it done off the beaten track off road routes, and it works well with the wunderlinq app on my BMW. The later is a definite, it integrates with the wunderlinq better than any other app I have tried, the control with the wheel is great, being able to control your music, zoom in and out, skip waypoints etc without taking your hands off the bars is great.
Now the off road stuff is not so good in my opinion. The only way it can be used off road is as a track follower with no directions, you can only really plan an off road ride using it with so many waypoints it takes forever as it always tries to route you back to a road. If you plan an off road route using say basecamp and send it to scenic it will hit all your waypoints but using roads and not your route. In the UK we have something BOAT's these are Byways Open To All Traffic, these are roads which are on the whole unmaintained and sometimes very narrow and tough to get a bike through, but they are legal roads for all vehicles, the make up part of the Trans Euro Trail, the TET as its known. But if you try and plan a route with them in scenic its nigh on impossible.
Next is clarity, V4 is an improvement but I still think it is behind the clarity of apps like OSMand apple maps. Its a bit unfair to compare OSMand to Scenic but unfortunately I find myself doing that. If I enter an off road event I will often record the track using my old garmin montana or iphone, now if I save this track then load it into OSMand it will actually route me keeping to that track with voice notifications as well, this is great as I don't have to keep looking at the track and can concentrate on the terrain. As you can tell the lack of off road routing is a bug bear for me.
Currently there are definitely routing and travel time issues but I am sure Guido will get them sorted.
But currently with no speed cameras or 3d mode I'm finding it hard to use the app even for road routes.
I'm not finishing on a negative as there is so much to like about Scenic, route sharing with the scenic community is something OSMand can't do and the interface is so much nicer to use on Scenic, the folder system and layout generally is better than other navigation apps.
Once Guido sorts the current issues out and the updates arrive in March it will again be the best bike navigation app available..
Quote from Guido on 21.11.2024, 14:04Thanks @gb, I appreciate the honest message.
Regarding offroad routes (specifically the TET): When you import a GPX, Scenic always tries to match the GPX with the known road network. With "known road network" is meant (1) roads that are actually on the map and (2) roads that Scenic thinks you are actually allowed to go on with a motorcycle. From what I've seen so far, number (1) is not really the problem. The roads in the TET can typically be seen on the map. The problem is (2). Much of these TET trails/paths are not marked as being accessible (or allowed) to go on by motorcycle. I don't expect this to change any time soon, and this is not something I can do myself. As these are not well-traveled roads, the map data is not maintained as good as "normal" paved roads. You could report, or even fix these issues, but, that's quite a lot of work: https://scenic.app/help/reporting-map-errors/
There are two workarounds:
1 - Try changing your routing mode during import. Try the motorcycle 'short' routing. Or, even try the bicycle routing with mountain bike! (Many of these trails/paths are marked as allowed for bicycles)
2- If this fails, then you always have the option to save the blue dotted line as a track. Here is a help article on that (not updated for Scenic 4 yet, but the functionality is the same): https://scenic.app/help/offroad-dual-sport-trail-routes/Regarding the map clarity: This is very personal. That's why the map customizer is coming back. The Scenic 4 provider offers a LOT more options to customize the map, which I'm planning to make available to you, so you can customize the map to your liking. I.e. colors, road width, font size, what elements to see at what zoom level, etc. It will take a little while though as this is not the highest priority at the moment.
Thanks @gb, I appreciate the honest message.
Regarding offroad routes (specifically the TET): When you import a GPX, Scenic always tries to match the GPX with the known road network. With "known road network" is meant (1) roads that are actually on the map and (2) roads that Scenic thinks you are actually allowed to go on with a motorcycle. From what I've seen so far, number (1) is not really the problem. The roads in the TET can typically be seen on the map. The problem is (2). Much of these TET trails/paths are not marked as being accessible (or allowed) to go on by motorcycle. I don't expect this to change any time soon, and this is not something I can do myself. As these are not well-traveled roads, the map data is not maintained as good as "normal" paved roads. You could report, or even fix these issues, but, that's quite a lot of work: https://scenic.app/help/reporting-map-errors/
There are two workarounds:
1 - Try changing your routing mode during import. Try the motorcycle 'short' routing. Or, even try the bicycle routing with mountain bike! (Many of these trails/paths are marked as allowed for bicycles)
2- If this fails, then you always have the option to save the blue dotted line as a track. Here is a help article on that (not updated for Scenic 4 yet, but the functionality is the same): https://scenic.app/help/offroad-dual-sport-trail-routes/
Regarding the map clarity: This is very personal. That's why the map customizer is coming back. The Scenic 4 provider offers a LOT more options to customize the map, which I'm planning to make available to you, so you can customize the map to your liking. I.e. colors, road width, font size, what elements to see at what zoom level, etc. It will take a little while though as this is not the highest priority at the moment.
Quote from GB on 21.11.2024, 15:26Hi Guido, as usual a quick response. You have said it yourself, it’s a work around, if I send a gpx file to an app I don’t want the app to take it upon it’s self to change the route I spent hours building, you can’t market an app for “unpaved adventures and dirt road visualisation” when it always tries to put you on the tarmac as its first choice. For the moment my off road routes will be guided by OSMand but with my heart wanting to use scenic.
Hi Guido, as usual a quick response. You have said it yourself, it’s a work around, if I send a gpx file to an app I don’t want the app to take it upon it’s self to change the route I spent hours building, you can’t market an app for “unpaved adventures and dirt road visualisation” when it always tries to put you on the tarmac as its first choice. For the moment my off road routes will be guided by OSMand but with my heart wanting to use scenic.
Quote from Guido on 21.11.2024, 16:20I understand your point, but it’s not that black and white.
GPX files do not contain a routing mode. Only a bunch of coordinates. These coordinates can basically be everywhere. Even in the middle of the ocean or the desert.
Scenic’s routing mode determines how (what roads) are used between these coordinates. This is necessary to make it a navigable route giving you turn by turn instructions.
Scenic will use whatever routing mode it’s on at the moment of import as it has no way of knowing if this route contains dirt stretches or not. By playing around with the routing mode you probability can get a far better match, reducing the number of manual modifications.
For TET-like routes, if you want turn by turn instructions, like mentioned I’d try putting it on bicycle (mountain bike) routing mode. Did you already try this by any chance?
If you don’t care about turn by turn instructions and are OK with visually following the track on the map, then use the ‘save blue line as track’ feature.
If you are creating the route from scratch then I’d recommend creating it in Scenic to avoid the app/website where you are creating the route using a different routing algorithm than Scenic.
I don’t know if OSMAnd gives you turn by turn instructions for these kind of routes? If it does, then it probably uses another method to ‘snap’ the GPX coordinates to the road network.
The Scenic 4 map provider does offer this other method, and I have made some investigative steps towards this, but that’s still a work in progress and not a priority at the moment. The highest priority is to get Scenic 4 at par functionality wise with Scenic 3, and Scenic 3 used the same method as Scenic 4 does now.
Hope this explains a bit more.
I understand your point, but it’s not that black and white.
GPX files do not contain a routing mode. Only a bunch of coordinates. These coordinates can basically be everywhere. Even in the middle of the ocean or the desert.
Scenic’s routing mode determines how (what roads) are used between these coordinates. This is necessary to make it a navigable route giving you turn by turn instructions.
Scenic will use whatever routing mode it’s on at the moment of import as it has no way of knowing if this route contains dirt stretches or not. By playing around with the routing mode you probability can get a far better match, reducing the number of manual modifications.
For TET-like routes, if you want turn by turn instructions, like mentioned I’d try putting it on bicycle (mountain bike) routing mode. Did you already try this by any chance?
If you don’t care about turn by turn instructions and are OK with visually following the track on the map, then use the ‘save blue line as track’ feature.
If you are creating the route from scratch then I’d recommend creating it in Scenic to avoid the app/website where you are creating the route using a different routing algorithm than Scenic.
I don’t know if OSMAnd gives you turn by turn instructions for these kind of routes? If it does, then it probably uses another method to ‘snap’ the GPX coordinates to the road network.
The Scenic 4 map provider does offer this other method, and I have made some investigative steps towards this, but that’s still a work in progress and not a priority at the moment. The highest priority is to get Scenic 4 at par functionality wise with Scenic 3, and Scenic 3 used the same method as Scenic 4 does now.
Hope this explains a bit more.
Quote from GB on 22.11.2024, 03:23Thanks Guido
I have used the blue track and it does work like you said, I haven’t tried bicycling yet but they may be an option.
I don’t know how OSMand routes you along a track but I can assure you it does and with voice directions but I would rather use scenic whenever I can, will try bicycle and see what happens
Thanks Guido
I have used the blue track and it does work like you said, I haven’t tried bicycling yet but they may be an option.
I don’t know how OSMand routes you along a track but I can assure you it does and with voice directions but I would rather use scenic whenever I can, will try bicycle and see what happens
Quote from GB on 22.11.2024, 04:13Ok, I think the problem is like you said using different route planning software on my mac book. The problem is I can’t run scenic on my older mac book air, because I think that would make a massive difference as I like to plan on a laptop not my phone.
Ok, I think the problem is like you said using different route planning software on my mac book. The problem is I can’t run scenic on my older mac book air, because I think that would make a massive difference as I like to plan on a laptop not my phone.
Quote from Guido on 22.11.2024, 06:03I fully understand. A web planner has been on the list as well for a long time, but has been pushed back as well because of the previous map provider situation.
I fully understand. A web planner has been on the list as well for a long time, but has been pushed back as well because of the previous map provider situation.
Quote from GB on 22.11.2024, 06:14Understand the position you were put in Guido, just done some planning on my phone and it has provided better results than using basecamp or MRA. For me a web planner would be awesome.
Understand the position you were put in Guido, just done some planning on my phone and it has provided better results than using basecamp or MRA. For me a web planner would be awesome.
Quote from Marts on 22.11.2024, 17:38Quote from Guido on 22.11.2024, 06:03A web planner has been on the list as well for a long time, but has been pushed back as well because of the previous map provider situation.
That will be a handy one to have for Windows users (I use Scenic on the Mac). But, in the meantime, people can use a plethora of online nav applications and services to create routes to export out and import into Scenic. Google Maps is the most obvious.
I've only used Scenic V4x once or twice on the bike and the Chigee display. Works well. Mostly I've been using it in our cars, mainly to test its new features and mapping capabilities.
Regarding the OP's views I'd have thought that a dedicated off-road nav app would've been more suitable. Here in Australia if I was to do off-road work I'd probably use what's called HEMA.
Quote from Guido on 22.11.2024, 06:03A web planner has been on the list as well for a long time, but has been pushed back as well because of the previous map provider situation.
That will be a handy one to have for Windows users (I use Scenic on the Mac). But, in the meantime, people can use a plethora of online nav applications and services to create routes to export out and import into Scenic. Google Maps is the most obvious.
I've only used Scenic V4x once or twice on the bike and the Chigee display. Works well. Mostly I've been using it in our cars, mainly to test its new features and mapping capabilities.
Regarding the OP's views I'd have thought that a dedicated off-road nav app would've been more suitable. Here in Australia if I was to do off-road work I'd probably use what's called HEMA.
Quote from GB on 23.11.2024, 06:24Yep you can use a plethora of different apps but Scenic reroutes the gpx file to suit it’s algorithm which is expected, but like Guido says you can import the blue track and just look down and follow that. What would be good is if you draw your scenic route as a layer over the top of the blue track.
I have managed to plan off road routes with scenic but it is very tedious on my phone and needs lots of points added to keep it on track.Guido if you wouldn’t mind I would like to send you a gpx file that has hundreds of points when opened in basecamp so I was hoping these points would keep scenic on the route?
Yep you can use a plethora of different apps but Scenic reroutes the gpx file to suit it’s algorithm which is expected, but like Guido says you can import the blue track and just look down and follow that. What would be good is if you draw your scenic route as a layer over the top of the blue track.
I have managed to plan off road routes with scenic but it is very tedious on my phone and needs lots of points added to keep it on track.
Guido if you wouldn’t mind I would like to send you a gpx file that has hundreds of points when opened in basecamp so I was hoping these points would keep scenic on the route?
Quote from Guido on 23.11.2024, 10:35Hi @gb,
Yes, please send it to me, I'll have a look if I can find a faster way to import it without too much editing work.
You can use the email button at the bottom of the help page.Also, read this blog article I wrote a long time ago (8 years ago). It's still valid and it explain how Scenic currently needs to reduce that number of points to make it a navigable route and give you turn by turn instructions. https://scenic.app/turn-turn-instructions-gpx-tracks-everything-never-wanted-know/
It's really a good article and will help understand why this is happening.
With the "other method" I mentioned above, the match should be 100% (because then Scenic will use all those hundreds (sometimes thousands) of points to choose the roads. This is the method that is mentioned in the "side note" paragraph in the blog article... and the Scenic 4 map provider has that option available. I'm hoping to have some time to spend on this after March, when all the missing features have been added back to Scenic 4. Maybe sooner, but I can not make any promises.
Hi @gb,
Yes, please send it to me, I'll have a look if I can find a faster way to import it without too much editing work.
You can use the email button at the bottom of the help page.
Also, read this blog article I wrote a long time ago (8 years ago). It's still valid and it explain how Scenic currently needs to reduce that number of points to make it a navigable route and give you turn by turn instructions. https://scenic.app/turn-turn-instructions-gpx-tracks-everything-never-wanted-know/
It's really a good article and will help understand why this is happening.
With the "other method" I mentioned above, the match should be 100% (because then Scenic will use all those hundreds (sometimes thousands) of points to choose the roads. This is the method that is mentioned in the "side note" paragraph in the blog article... and the Scenic 4 map provider has that option available. I'm hoping to have some time to spend on this after March, when all the missing features have been added back to Scenic 4. Maybe sooner, but I can not make any promises.
Quote from GB on 23.11.2024, 11:30Just read that article, very interesting and clever if scenic does what you say it does regarding straight and curved calculations.
Email on way.
Just read that article, very interesting and clever if scenic does what you say it does regarding straight and curved calculations.
Email on way.
