Please or Register to create posts and topics.

Show and start from specific way point number

So here is the issue i'm having. I am short sighted so when I ride, I use my glasses to see long 🙂 which means, while i'm wearing i cant see short distance anymore. Not a problem for riding; yet a problem for reading on small screen. It would be really helpful if the next waypoint would show as a slightly bigger circle, highlighted from the others which would stay at current size - hope this makes sense lol. Or maybe just show the next waypoint in a corder of the screen somewhere ... but again, a bit bigger.

The 2nd issue is ... I have recently started leading rides for my club and last week, while on a reckon ride I noticed few glitches - all of these kinda related and triggered by a blocked road / forced detour.

  1. A STOP market got skipped - this is stop 2 in the attached map!! As I understand, stops should not be skipped in any circumstances
  2. Not only the stop was skipped, but all the way points before it - basically, between stop 1 and stop 2, I was not getting anywhere; because there is a cross route on way back, Scenic for some reason was trying to send me back from stop 1 (waypoint 39) to waypoint 62 towards the end of the route so every waypoing between 39 and 49 (where stop 2 is) got skipped
  3. I have actually stopped multiple times and changed the "Detour behaviour" settings but nothing would help! Initially I had it as:
    • Recalculate on detour | ON
    • Self-Correct | ON
    • Auto-skip Via points | ON
    • Skip distance was | was 2 miles I think

I can see how some of the settings above could've messed things up; but main point here is - STOP2 should not be skipped, regardless.

In light of what happened, I then tried to force next waypoint to be a specific one (custom) without having to set it as route START point. I believe this cannot be done or maybe I didnt find a way of doing it.

Other issues:

  • There were lots of problems with the labeling of the waypoints as I was designing the route; so basically, the names would get mixed up, would not get updated, etc. - I noticed this while on desktop Mac App. Not sure if this is happening as well on the phone/ipad app. The ecosystem is pretty much the same so I dont expect the code to be all much different though.
  • In the timeline, is it possible to add the mileage distance from the previous waypoint (something like, adding it in brackets)

well ... that's it ... sorry! a lot going on in this message! 😀

Hi Gonzalex,

Thanks for your feedback. Here are some responses. Hope it helps.

Cheers,
Guido

It would be really helpful if the next waypoint would show as a slightly bigger circle, highlighted from the others which would stay at current size

That's not possible at the moment, but I believe some of the things mentioned here might help you: https://scenic.app/forum/topic/stop-in-route-text/#postid-4189

A STOP market got skipped

That shouldn't happen indeed. The only way I can imagine this could happen is if the route has many overlapping roads (i.e. roads that are used twice in the route, e.g. on the way out and on the way back). Sometimes Scenic can get confused about this, thinking you are on the way back already, while you are still on the way out. I'd have to see the route to know exactly why this could have happened (you forgot to attach it I think). It can also happen if you have Auto-Skip via points set to ON (correction: only via points will be skipped with this setting, not stops), but as I understand it this was turned off when this happened. Changing the Detour Behaviour after the stop was already skipped won't correct this though. A change in Detour Behaviour only has effect for detours after you changed the setting.

I then tried to force next waypoint to be a specific one (custom) without having to set it as route START point. I believe this cannot be done or maybe I didnt find a way of doing it

You can remove and add stops during navigation by double tapping the map. This will take you to edit mode. To remove a via / stop, tap it and select the delete button in the popup bubble. To add one tap the map or use the search button.

There were lots of problems with the labeling of the waypoints as I was designing the route; so basically, the names would get mixed up, would not get updated, etc.

What kind of problems exactly? Do you mean that if you named one stop, that name was linked to another stop? This was in the Power Planner?

In the timeline, is it possible to add the mileage distance from the previous waypoint (something like, adding it in brackets)

In the power planner you see the distance between the stops, however indeed during navigation you don't see this. I'm migrating Scenic to the new HERE map framework during fall/winter, and will add this while I'm at it.

 

 

If you're enjoying Scenic and are happy with the support, please leave a nice rating in the App Store. It would mean a lot to me ❤️

Hi Guido,

Thanks for your quick reply and sorry for my delayed reply 🙂
I thought I’d rather wait for the actual ride I led today and see if the app misbehaves again - and it did.
Please see the ride here:  https://scenicapp.space/ride/HnMExAMZ - This includes the misrouting (waypoints 5 to 6 and back through 7).
I have also attached the actual route, as loaded in the iPhone app (originally loaded in my iPhone app): https://scenicapp.space/route/UBOwReSR
I am also attaching below a screenshot showing my settings.
So what happened?
We stopped at STOP 1 for a quick break. As we get off to continue the ride, I noticed quite quickly the route wasn’t what I was expecting; Scenic was basically taking me to the end of the ride (from the cross over, down), skipping all the upper waypoints, even the 2nd STOP. On the ride file itself, you can see the via points 5, 6 and then my return back via point 7. I was then hoping … "I will just go back to what should have been the next waypoint after the 1st STOP and things will return to normal". Unfortunately, that didn't happen !! So I literally had to just pay attention at the map, took a few extra stops to re-orient myself, etc.... eventually got to destination STOP 2 "manually".
From there, all the way to the end of the ride, I had no further problems - by pure luck; let me explaiin: the initially skipped via points were still showing as "skipped" (grayed out) but the route to the next "valid" (not skipped) was used coincidentally via the skipped via points.
Hope this makes sense 🙂 - kinda difficult to put it in words.
For me there are two issues here:
1. Why is 2nd STOP being skipped? Had this not happened, I would have still been able to get to it, albeit, probably via a different route. But at least would have been more practical
2. Why are so many via points being skipped?
I am thinking, maybe I should just disable the "self-correct" option ... but then, how would I deal with the situation where I do actually need to reroute by skipping an existent via point?
Now, on the other issues ...
1. The bigger circle - actually, I noticed today that on the app, this is actually shown in the top left corner ... it shows the next via point as a number ... this is not the case though when a new roundabout or change of direction is coming - but that's ok actually.
2. The problems with the labels ... well, I think it's quite easy to replicate; I'll try and let you know. But basically, I could label via point 10, but then, the label shows attached to the end of the route instead. I am wondering if it has to do with some sort of variable refresh between the label shown under the timeline, or the label attached to the actual via points.
Thanks for your assistance!

Hi Gonzalex,

Looking at the route I can explain this and give some recommendations on how to prevent it.

Why was a big part of the route skipped:

The reasons why this happened is the self-correct feature, in combination with the overlapping stretch in the middle of the route, around Stop 1:

Because you had a stop there, and I assume went a little bit off route during that stop (went inside for a coffee?), a detour was detected. When a detour is detected Scenic starts a recalculation.

During that recalculation Scenic checks if self-correct is enabled. Self correct is a feature that can skip waypoints and stops. It is mostly meant for real detours, where you can't take a stretch of road due to an obstruction. Take this conceptual example:

Let's say there is road construction just before via 5, so you take another road (the green road). Scenic doesn't know about the construction, thinks you detoured, and try to guide you back to 5. This is normal behaviour.

Because you have self-correct enabled, as long as you are not on the original route, Scenic will keep scanning until you get back on the original route. Once you get on the route again (in this case after via 7), and because you have self-correct enabled, it will assume you skipped 5, 6, and 7 on purpose, stop sending you back to 5, and continue the route towards 8.

Now it gets a bit technical because I need to explain how Scenic does this: so Scenic is scanning if you get back on the route. Once you do, it checks the closest unreached via point (in this case via 8), and marks all the vias and stops before that as 'reached'.

AND HERE IS WHERE IT GETS TRICKY WITH OVERLAPPING STRETCHES

Let's move back to your route. In this case, via point 62 is the closest unreached via point, and Scenic does the same. It marks all vias and stops before 62 as reached, and sends you to follow the route from 62 onwards.

Now, I have built in a safety so that Scenic doesn't remove a whole route just when you get started on a round trip. (Typically round trips have an overlapping stretch around the start/end point.) E.g. if you have a round trip and the overlapping stretch is near the start and end, and you detour there, it would remove the entire route in essence. The safety is that Scenic checks if it would remove more than half of all the via points of the route. If that's the case, it will not self-correct (it will not mark via points as 'reached'). In this case, this safety doesn't work, because it's removing only 21 vias/stops (40 to 61) of the total 110.

I hope this explains why this happened? If not, please let me know. Happy to explain further if necessary.

 

What can you do to prevent this in the future:

There are two things you can do:

  1. Turn off self-correct.
    This will definitely solve this problem, but you will loose the self-correct feature that can sometimes be useful like in the conceptual example.
    You can still skip vias and stops manually, by using the 'Skip Via/Stop' button in the navigation menu (big button menu).
  2. Reduce the via points between the start and the overlapping stretch, and between the overlapping stretch and the end.
    This route has a lot of unnecessary via points. You can remove 90% of them and it would still take the same roads (this is because it's taking bigger roads mostly). If you leave the via points in the loop, the safety will kick in and the loop won't be removed.

What can I/Scenic do to prevent this in the future:

The safety I built for round trips is perhaps a bit too broad. Perhaps I can make it so that if it would skip more than 25% of all vias it should not self-correct. I will need to play around with this. I'm migrating Scenic to the new HERE map framework during fall/winter and will see if I can adjust this safety so that it also works for overlapping stretches near the middle of the route. This is tricky though. Because, sometimes people do want to skip a big part of the route (because they lost time and want to get back home). Self- correct should work in those cases. So, I need to find a balance that works for most routes.

 

For the other issues:

  1. Via points as navigation instruction in stead of direction arrows:
    This is also a result of the many via points. If there are two consecutive via points, without an actual turn instruction in between, it will show the distance to the second via. I had to do this because the HERE framework gives turn instructions for all vias and stops as well. If it's one via between turn instructions I can ignore it and show the next turn instructions, but if there are two vias between turn instructions I can't, because HERE only gives the upcoming two turn instructions.
  2. I'm afraid I don't understand the labeling problem yet. Next time this happens, could you make some screenshots. Sorry 🙄

 

Best regards,
Guido

 

 

 

If you're enjoying Scenic and are happy with the support, please leave a nice rating in the App Store. It would mean a lot to me ❤️

It took me some time to write back with a very specific example, screenshots, two versions of route ... lol ... wasn't sure you would get all that explicit. So thanks for taking the time to write up - guessing wasn't straight forward to structure it 😉

Anyway, the (1) secondary issue - showing the via points instead of navigation instructions - i'm actually very cool with that; i like it. If you remember I was asking if the via points circles could be bigger? well ... I dont care now because when nav instructions are not shown, I get the next via point instead.

As per the secondary (2) issue, I'll try replicate it...

Now ... the main issue with the rerouting - i must admit; i'm sure there is a lot of complexities there and my head started spinning when reading through it. So will take some time later to actually absorb it. I got lots of coding background so the tech/logic details behind all this, kinda "tickle" me 😀 But one thing that I dont get (and again, maybe you did explained in the details and it was me who missed it!) - I thought the STOPs are not meant to be skipped no matter what! I was banking on that idea when I set that 2nd stop as a STOP!

At the moment, Stops are never removed by the 'Auto-Skip Via points' feature, but they can be removed by the self-correct feature.

You are getting me thinking though. Perhaps I can add that to the safety: if a stop would be skipped, don't self-correct. Definitely food for thought. I'll revisit this while I'm doing the migration to the new HERE map framework. It's possible that the new framework also gives some more options around this. I didn't get that far in the migration yet, but will keep that in mind.

Let me know if you have any more questions once you go through it in detail.

Cheers,
Guido

If you're enjoying Scenic and are happy with the support, please leave a nice rating in the App Store. It would mean a lot to me ❤️

oh ok. good to know. And yeah ... I think it's good food for thought. It kinda makes logical sense for a stop not to be skipped regardless !! Or maybe, only via the "skip via" option ... which can be manually enabled. That way, you are just making it explicit - if a stop needs removing, then let the user explicitly set it so. Never automatic!

just "fun" fact: that stop being removed, gave me a lot of headache while having to reroute 20+ riders and at the same time, make sure I follow the map, ignoring the rerouting directions, scrolling through the map while riding with mcycle gloves on hahahah . what an adventure! epic!

Now that I think about it... another way to reduce the possibility of this happening, is to make sure the closest (as the crow flies) unreached via point around a stop (where typically a detour is detected if you go inside), is in the loop.

For your route, placing a via where the arrow is, would have prevented the route being skipped, because in that case via 40 would be the closest in stead of via 62.

If you're enjoying Scenic and are happy with the support, please leave a nice rating in the App Store. It would mean a lot to me ❤️

good to know the details. it is really starting to make sense in my head too. I just checked as well .... the via 62 is so much closer to the crossover than via 40. oh well ... as they say ... the devil is in the details. thanks again!

Quote from Gonzalex on 10.10.2022, 11:23

just "fun" fact: that stop being removed, gave me a lot of headache while having to reroute 20+ riders and at the same time, make sure I follow the map, ignoring the rerouting directions, scrolling through the map while riding with mcycle gloves on hahahah . what an adventure! epic!

I can imagine that.

Next time this happens, what you could do is stop the navigation session. And then select the route again, but this time, before you tap 'Start Navigation', tap the "Join route at" button, and select "Choose point" (and select via 40). Here's a screenshot: https://scenic.app/forum/topic/multi-day-route/#postid-2661

Gonzalex has reacted to this post.
Gonzalex
If you're enjoying Scenic and are happy with the support, please leave a nice rating in the App Store. It would mean a lot to me ❤️

OMG! had I known that ... I did wonder why isn't there an option to just force the next via! That would be how!

Read the F manual, right? hahaha

This option is quite hidden I have to admit 🙂
Also... if it's important for you to keep tracking, you don't have to stop the navigation session, but in stead, tap the ETA bar, then tap 'Pause' and select 'To start screen'. Then the tracking session will stay active, but you can select a new route and where to pick it up in the same way.

Gonzalex and GHJ have reacted to this post.
GonzalexGHJ
If you're enjoying Scenic and are happy with the support, please leave a nice rating in the App Store. It would mean a lot to me ❤️