Quote from Guido on 04.05.2024, 18:48

have you tried the other route in the GPX? If that doesn’t work try the track (you’ll loose all the stop info too with that though).

planning to include another route in the GPX that work well with the modern Garmins.

Quote from Foxthorn on 04.05.2024, 19:49

The other route format doesn't include the via points only the waypoints.

To have a via point be treated as a shaping point (and not announce and not require passing through) then the GPX file can be updated to handle this by doing the additions as shown in the attached picture. You probably already know that but I thought I'd mention it just in case. It would seem that in the Power Planer when I create 'stops' then those are waypoints and appear in the GPX as they do today and when I create 'vias' then those should be tagged with the 'shaping point' qualifier.

 

Quote from Guido on 05.05.2024, 04:09

This is very helpful. I’ve been meaning to add the trip / shaping point extension for a while. Didn’t know it was this easy. I’ll look into it in the coming week. Should be able to add that in the next update.

Thanks!

 

 

Quote from Guido on 06.05.2024, 17:18

@foxthorn. ShapingPoint (TripExtensions) -  Will be in the next update.

You can already download GPX with shaping point extension if you do following:

• Don't export GPX from Scenic iOS directly. In stead, tap the "Share" button.
• Open the share link and then tap the "download GPX button".

I imported it in Garmin Basecamp and seems to work. Don't have a Garmin device so can't test that, but please let me know if you find problems.

Quote from Foxthorn on 06.05.2024, 18:57

Hi Guido…

Thanks so much for working on this… Here is some info for you:

1. “Garmin Trip Extension” – will load into Basecamp and look correct but when copied directly to the Nav5 (not using basecamp) it will not include the Stop points – only includes the Via points from Scenic. To fix this you need to add another tag for the stops just like you did for the via points.  Garmin’s terminology is wacky, as it calls via for what Scenic calls stops and calls ShapingPoint for what Scenic calls via.  So for the Scenic Stops you need to add a <trp:ViaPoint> to them like this:

  <rtept lat="42.431230" lon="-83.480177">

    <name>Stop 1 - Stop 1 (Via 3)</name>

      <extensions>

        <trp:ViaPoint/>

      </extensions>

  </rtept>

2. “Garmin RoutePoint Extension” will load into basecamp but will not load into Nav5.

I don’t think you are using the Garmin route point extension correctly. This extension (as far as I understand) is to have a way to provide numerous track like points between each via/stop point to closely describe the desired route so that when loaded into a Garmin unit it will load without recalculating the route.  Thus, initially on import into the Garmin unit the route(trip) is guaranteed to be exactly as you saw it in Basecamp(or other software supporting this extension – like Furkot) – however, once you recalculate on your unit (detour etc) then those points are ignored and your routing preferences are used to get you to the next point. This also has the side benefit of much faster speed when importing by not having to calculate paths (between via/stop points) on the unit during import.

Also in your version, you included just the Stop points and did not include the Via (shaping) points.  You need both and both should include the track like points describing the path to the next point.  Try creating a route in Basecamp with via and stop points and exporting and looking at the <gpxx:RoutePointExtension> section.

Hope that helps! Let me know if would like me to test anything else.

Quote from Guido on 06.05.2024, 19:09

I understand what you mean.

Tomorrow I’ll add the “trp:ViaPoint” as that’s easy.

The route point extension is more work. At the moment, the route point extension contains the paths between the stops and the paths also have the via points in them obviously. So, the Nav5 should not have to calculate on import now either (at least not when you import that route from the GPX).

But indeed when detouring from the route and recalculation takes place, it’s better to have the (Scenic) vias as (Garmin) shaping points in the GPX route.

A related question:
Do you know what happens in the Nav5 if one of the stops or vias can’t be mapped to a road? (I.e. road exists in Scenic map but not in Garmin map)

 

Quote from Foxthorn on 06.05.2024, 20:30

 

I understand that you included the via points as route point extension points. But this isn't having the desired effect.

In the picture below the Magenta line is the “Garmin RoutePoint Extension” version, the Blue line is “Garmin Trip Extension” and the grey line is the track.

As you can see the Magenta line is going direct point to point using only the stops ignoring the vias (shown on the Blue line). You must recalculate in Basecamp to get a route and once you do, in this case, the route generated is drastically different than was in Scenic. Also, the “Garmin RoutePoint Extension” gpx will error and not import directly into the Nav5 (when copying to the Nav via USB) - this is a problem for those not using Basecamp.

Take a look at the output Furkot provides when exporting GPX. They give two options "GPX Exchange" and "Garmin route GPX".  The first is similar to your "plain GPX" where all points (vias and stops) become stops and you need to recalc to generate the path between them. Their "Garmin route GPX" export correctly uses the Garmin route point extension and when I bring that one into Basecamp it loads exactly the same path as in Furkot using shaping points and a whole lot of points in the route point extension section... thus no recalc is needed.  Try some exports from Fukot and look at the GPX file for both types and you will see what I mean.

https://help.furkot.com/how-to/export.html

Regarding what happens in Nav5 if a point is not on a road.. I tested this by placing a stop in the middle of a field and the generated route took the path directly to the waypoint even though there was no road to it. I also forced the Garmin unit to recalc and the result was the same.

I know this will take time for you to address - just trying to help where I can.

Quote from Foxthorn on 06.05.2024, 20:53

Regarding your question about how Nav5/6 handles points off of roads... one more thing...

I found this pic somewhere online -- it shows a Route that includes route point extension points that is loaded onto a non-routable base map - but still is able to navigate the given path because of the route point extension data. Pretty nice actually.

You can tell it's a route and not a track because of the waypoint/stop flags... and there are no roads on the map to follow - but the route still works because of the route extension data - without it, there would be just 4 straight line segments.

Quote from Guido on 07.05.2024, 11:19

Thanks again @foxthorn. Very helpfull.

I've added the ViaPoint denominator for Scenic stops. Should already work if you download through the web page. Will be available directly through the Export GPX button in the upcoming update.

Could you give it a try again to see if there's anything more I'm missing?

I'll look at the routepoint version later if I have more time.

Quote from Guido on 07.05.2024, 11:29

For my understanding.... how/why are you planning to use this?

Do you want to take Basecamp (and your computer) out of the equation? In other words, plan routes in Scenic and then use an SD Card reader to get the GPX to your Nav V / VI? As far as I know, you can't send GPX files to the Nav V / VI directly from your iPhone / iPad, correct?

Quote from Foxthorn on 07.05.2024, 12:05

Thanks Guido, I'll try the new exports later tonight.

I want to take Basecamp out of the equation. I create routes using Scenic on my Mac, attach my Garmin via USB to the Mac and copy the exported gpx file to the Garmin using the Mac Finder.

These changes would also be helpful for anyone who still intends to use Basecamp. Both the fix for Via/Shaping points identified correctly as well as having correct route extension points is a benefit in Basecamp as well (and for any other software such as Furkot that supports the Garmin extensions).

Edit: Thought I'd add that I've been experimenting with Scenic with CarPlay and would like to transition to it eventually - but even so, the reality is that our riding group like many I'm sure has a variety of navigation hardware from phones to different Garmin unit models and thus sharing clean GPX files is a priority and why many still hang on to Basecamp as the neutral intermediary.  The dream is to have Scenic be my primary software where I can navigate (carplay), create and share GPX to others as well as take in GPX from others and have this be done with the most garmin device support as possible.

 

Quote from Foxthorn on 07.05.2024, 19:39

@guidomm I tested the new export and the 'Garmin Trip Extension' version came into the Nav 5 and Basecamp with correct Via and Stop points. Thanks for the quick update to make this work! Much appreciated.

The drawback is still that without the route point extension points existing in the file the 'Garmin Trip Extension' version is forced to recalculate when it comes into the Nav5 or Basecamp.  In my test route the recalc did not match the route as designed in Scenic (thus people will still have to use Basecamp to verify and adjust the route after recalc and have Basecamp export to device with adequate route extension points). If I was using Scenic to navigate then I guess this wouldn't be an issue for me but I would still want to share my Scenic routes with others and this would likely not make my routes useable by everyone in my riding group.

When you get time to work on route extension points I would suggest combining your 'Garmin Trip Extension' and 'Garmin RoutePoint Extension' GPX flavors into a single one calling it simply "Garmin Route GPX".  This is because anyone with a Garmin is going to want BOTH the correct ShapingPoint/Via designations as well as the RouteExtension points (to avoid recalcs) in the same file and I don't see a use case of just wanting or needing one and not the other.  So anyone with a Garmin unit would pick this version and anyone else that needs a simple waypoint to waypoint gpx for other devices/software will use the 'plain GPX' (Basic GPX).

Hope that helps.

Quote from Guido on 07.05.2024, 21:07

Yes. I understand. Once I have time I will look at it in detail.

Thanks for all your help and suggestions. Really appreciated!

Quote from Guido on 07.05.2024, 21:24

One more question if you don’t mind. Once I get this working and the route imports exactly as in Scenic without recalculating.

What does the Garmin do when you detour? Does it recalculate only the path/section between the two waypoints that you are currently on? Or does it recalculate the entire route (generating new routes between all the waypoints).

if the latter, you would basically get the same route you get now after the first detour.

Quote from Foxthorn on 08.05.2024, 18:37

@guidomm I tested this out using a route I planned (in Basecamp) using 'shortest distance' between waypoints... The Nav unit set to 'fastest time'. I imported the route into the Nav and it did not recalculate and showed on the map correctly as 'shortest distance'.  Then navigating the route, I went off-route and allowed it to recalculate. It recalculated the fastest distance to the next Stop but left the remaining route to the remaining stops showing the 'shortest distance'.

Quote from Guido on 09.05.2024, 08:49

Quote from Foxthorn on 08.05.2024, 18:37

@guidomm I tested this out using a route I planned (in Basecamp) using 'shortest distance' between waypoints... The Nav unit set to 'fastest time'. I imported the route into the Nav and it did not recalculate and showed on the map correctly as 'shortest distance'.  Then navigating the route, I went off-route and allowed it to recalculate. It recalculated the fastest distance to the next Stop but left the remaining route to the remaining stops showing the 'shortest distance'.

That's good news! Thanks again for testing this. I'll report back here once I have made the changes.

Quote from pleasantone on 22.05.2024, 23:12

Hi Guido, sorry for commenting on that old thread. I've got the same issue, using the Zumo XT/XT2 and I might be able to help explain the format better.

The use case is, of course, planning with Scenic and then downloading directly into the Garmin GPS by exporting the GPX into the Garmin Drive/Explore/Tread apps.

Everything Foxthorn said about combining the two formats is correct, we might just call it "Garmin Extensions" and go from there, nobody would want one without the other. In my edited message in the other thread, I describe the format Basecamp uses for route point extensions, which is actually a combination of the route, plus the track in between each rtept. If you don't mind referring back to the edited message you just replied to, #16, that's got the format in it. I can also give you a straight out of basecamp full file example, but the gpxx:RoutePointExtension format is truly simple. If you chose to look at this basecamp file, ignore Subclass, nobody has yet to decode that proprietary magic.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1H5ACYAhK2wAcJMdL-egiqGzBRldZT8D7/view?usp=share_link

Garmin does some seriously cool things with extensions, such as you can set layover times for non-shaping-point route points which help with things like "When am I going to expect to be at lunch?" I know there's no code yet in Scenic to support it, but we'd discussed it quite some time ago, and should you ever implement it, what they do is worth referencing.

In any case, serious THANKS are in order, you're awesome and I *so love scenic* that on my newest bike, I bought a CarPlay+AndroidApp device to test giving up my Zumo someday (hence my inquiry about the Android version a few days ago).

Quote from Guido on 23.05.2024, 10:49

Thanks again @pleasantone. I'm hoping to free a day next week or the day after for this. I think I have all the info I need now, but should I require anything else, I'll let you know. Regarding the other cool things in Garmin extensions... if it's useful for Scenic I will have a look at that too, but not everything is, at least not yet. For example, at the moment, Scenic's routing algorithm doesn't support layover times, and adding that feature is quite some work (new UI elements, database changes), which, for now, would only be useful for those planning in Scenic and exporting to a Garmin unit.

Quote from pleasantone on 23.05.2024, 11:33

No thank you Guido...(!)

For the depart-at/layover time feature, the GPX extension/data-contained-within was just reminding me about the feature itself that I miss from Basecamp. Since it's not relevant to this thread, and there's a lot of good that has been said in this "old" thread, I'll comment there -- #6

Quote from tellec on 05.09.2024, 00:20

First of all, I just want to thank @guidomm for creating what might just be the best routing app I’ve used in a decade. Having played with Furkot, Kurviger, Google Maps, and spent more time swearing at Basecamp than I’d care to admit - it was so refreshing to fire it up a few weeks ago and find it so immediately useful, an elegant balance of power and simplicity. Well done. I’ve since planned a multi-day tour using Scenic, and am looking forward to using it as a primary navigation app - thank you!

I wanted to bump this topic with a track question from the GPX Export, as some of the…”less enlightened” (ahem) friends on my trip are still using Garmin navs - both BMW NAV VI and newer Zumo XT/XT2 units. Because Garmin (nuff said), my new replacement NAV VI inexplicably refuses to mount on any of the three Macs in our household, so I’m unfortunately limited to testing via MicroSD card (for now).

Thanks to @guidomm ’s recent update, the exported GPX seems to have several sections for the various GPX formats - a “plain GPX” route, a “Garmin Trip Extension” route, a “Garmin RoutePoint Extension” route, and a Track. Exporting the GPX files from Scenic and copying to a MicroSD card works without issue. However, when I attempt to import the tracks on my own NAV VI, I found they were getting truncated well before the finish point in many cases. Though there are only a few stops (<5) and in most cases few via points, the ~290mi track has ~22.7k individual points, well beyond the 10k limit for most Garmin auto navs. Here’s a link to the route in question: https://scenicapp.space/route/mQKMobrE

I can try to use something like GPS Visualizer’s Track Filters (https://www.gpsvisualizer.com/tutorials/track_filters.html) to simplify the track, but before doing so wanted to check with the forum, as I’m sure in my newness I may be doing something incorrectly, or at least missing a more effective solution. Am I just doing this wrong, and should ask a friend who can mount a Nav VI via Basecamp to recreate the routes as Garmin Trips?

Also, wild small world coincidence - I found this thread an hour ago, and nearly fell out of my chair when I saw that @pleasantone was creating routes leaving down the street from my house, bouncing around on some of my favorite roads. We’ve got to know each other through Bay Area motorcycling - wish I could send ya a DM to connect!

 

Quote from pleasantone on 05.09.2024, 01:59

Hey! On Signal as pleasant.01 or WhatsApp QR code…

Quote from Guido on 05.09.2024, 06:55

Hi @tellec,

The track is indeed more of a "breadcrumb" of the route. Have you tried importing one of the routes into your Garmin? They contain less points and will rely on your Garmin Route calculation to calculate which roads to take between the stops.

An additional improvement to GPX export in Scenic is also coming around this, but isn't avaialble yet. Have a look at this thread: https://scenic.app/forum/topic/export-then-load-into-garmin-nav-5-6-waypoints-instead-of-bias

Best regards,
Guido

Quote from Dae on 05.09.2024, 09:43

@tellec - do you have an M series (silicon) Mac?  If so you need to use a USB hub, rather than using a USB-C cable straight into the Mac.  It’s a known issue that Garmin publish the solution for on their website.

Quote from tellec on 06.09.2024, 00:33

Quote from Guido on 05.09.2024, 06:55

Hi @tellec,

The track is indeed more of a "breadcrumb" of the route. Have you tried importing one of the routes into your Garmin? They contain less points and will rely on your Garmin Route calculation to calculate which roads to take between the stops.

Thanks Guido - the Garmin was acting up last night, but I was able to import some of the route options in Scenic’s GPX export this evening via the same method - e.g. Scenic GPX export -> MicroSD -> Import (on GPS device) via “Trip Planner”, bypassing Basecamp entirely.

I haven’t actually tested this route on the bike yet, but the “Garmin Trip Extension” option looks like the best fit for translating a route as-designed-in-Scenic to the intended route on the Garmin Nav VI; it maintains mid-route stops and seems to converts (Scenic) vias to (Garmin) shaping points as intended. The “Plain GPX” option converts everything (Scenic stops and vias) to a stop when imported into the Nav VI, and the “Garmin RoutePoint Extension” displays a simple “as the crow flies” line drawing between the (Scenic) stops, which the Garmin seemingly recalculates with it’s own onboard algorithm during routing (not ideal).

Here’s a screenshot of what I’m seeing on the device for the “Garmin Trip Extension” route, which seems to match my (in-app) Scenic route perfectly:

Interestingly, I had to add two new via points to the route in Scenic (circled above in red) to get the Garmin’s onboard routing algorithm to follow the route exactly. Without these two, the Garmin inexplicably skipped a bunch of via points and routed directly to the finish (this occurred with both the “Plain GPX” and “Garmin Trip Extension” options), like so:

Notably, the route shows as intended on Basecamp even without these shaping points, so this particular issue seems to be with the Nav VI’s onboard routing algorithm. Fortunately adding a few vias seemed to clear that up.

The source file for this Scenic route is here, should you want to take a look: https://scenicapp.space/route/mQKMobrE

An additional improvement to GPX export in Scenic is also coming around this, but isn't avaialble yet. Have a look at this thread: https://scenic.app/forum/topic/export-then-load-into-garmin-nav-5-6-waypoints-instead-of-bias

I’m not sure I follow (your link is to this thread) - are you saying there are further improvements to the GPX export coming soon?

Either way, thank you again for both creating such an amazing app experience designed for riders, and being so incredibly responsive here in the forum. Truly impressive for a one-man show!

Quote from tellec on 06.09.2024, 00:42

Quote from Dae on 05.09.2024, 09:43

@tellec - do you have an M series (silicon) Mac?  If so you need to use a USB hub, rather than using a USB-C cable straight into the Mac.  It’s a known issue that Garmin publish the solution for on their website.

Thanks @dae - I read about that while doing some research last night, but had the same failure to mount on several generations of Mac - both Apple Silicon and Intel machines (M3 Pro / Sonoma 14.3.1, Intel Dual Core i7 / Sonoma 14.6.1, & Intel Quad Core i7 / Monterey 12.7.6). I also tried an array of MicroUSB cables that worked for data transfer with other (non-GPS) devices, both direct and via a USB hub - no dice regardless.

It - unsurprisingly - seems to be an issue with the Garmin itself. I will take this up with them when I return from the trip in a few weeks. Frankly, this Garmin experience is the reason I found Scenic and moved to CarPlay-based nav on the bike; this is my third Nav VI in less than a year…

Quote from Dae on 06.09.2024, 00:47

The Nav VI it’s woeful. Mine used to have to be plugged in for 10-15 minutes before it was seen by my PC or Mac.

It eventually died with the ghost screen touch issue after 3 years, and my wife’s completely died and wouldn’t turn on a few weeks later. My neighbour’s had the touch issue at only 3 weeks old.

That’s when we moved to Scenic for navigation, with MRA for planning. 10,000 miles or more later and we don’t regret it one bit.

Quote from tellec on 06.09.2024, 01:13

Quote from Dae on 06.09.2024, 00:47

The Nav VI it’s woeful. Mine used to have to be plugged in for 10-15 minutes before it was seen by my PC or Mac.

It eventually died with the ghost screen touch issue after 3 years, and my wife’s completely died and wouldn’t turn on a few weeks later. My neighbour’s had the touch issue at only 3 weeks old.

I had a similar failure pattern - my original NAV VI (late 2019) worked for several years of light touring, then started ghost touching last summer. To their credit, Garmin replaced it without any hesitation, but the new device started ghosting within a few weeks of receiving it. They replaced it again, and this newest one has (seemingly) been better for some short test rides on the bike. Alas, I should have tried to mount it on my Mac(s) before I needed it - might have had time to avoid this jiggery pokery for the Garmin users in our group.

That’s when we moved to Scenic for navigation, with MRA for planning. 10,000 miles or more later and we don’t regret it one bit.

Looking back, I can’t believe how much time I spent planning routes (blissfully easily) in Google Maps, then working through an arcane ritual of Gmaps KML -> GPS Visualizer to export GPX -> import into Basecamp -> Export to device, all with requisite swearing when the route was borked on the Garmin or Basecamp botched it during import because the moon was in retrograde.

W/E - I am so done with Garmin. Onward with Scenic!

Quote from pleasantone on 11.02.2026, 10:01

@tellec hey neighbor are you still around?

Quote from tellec on 12.02.2026, 00:22

@pleasantone I'm where I've been for the last 10y! Apologies that I don't remember your handle tho - who dis? 😉

Quote from pleasantone on 12.02.2026, 02:58

Quote from tellec on 05.09.2024, 00:20

Also, wild small world coincidence - I found this thread an hour ago, and nearly fell out of my chair when I saw that @pleasantone was creating routes leaving down the street from my house, bouncing around on some of my favorite roads. We’ve got to know each other through Bay Area motorcycling - wish I could send ya a DM to connect!

 

@tellec Apparently we live near each other in the Bay Area? There are no DMs here, so I sent you my signal and WhatsApp info up above, or ping me at cantors_breath16@icloud.com (it's a burner email address).