Big feature suggestion: Follow The Leader
Quote from MarkZigger on 08.06.2024, 17:24Like many others, we run small group day rides (5-10 people, 100-500km) where the route has been uploaded prior to the trip. Typically we have a trip leader on the day who follows Scenic and the rest of us follow the leader using Scenic to confirm we're on the right path.
All very standard so far, but here's the dealio; sometime the trip leader has to detour, or wants to detour, but can't risk it because followers are following Scenic or, more often than we would like, the group gets split up because one of the riders has poor group riding skills or poor mirror scan technique or both. You could argue that better rider discipline would fix these problems but each ride is open to a generally larger group so we never quite know who is showing up on the day and what their group-riding skills are like. I have done a ton of group rides over the years, with a ton of different riders, which all start with explicit briefings, yet I have not seen group riding skills and scan skills improve over the years.
So, to the feature.
What if the real-time location of the trip leader is displayed on the app for everyone riding the same route? And what if the app had an option to say "follow leader" rather than "follow route"?
Yes, this is a big feature request as the leader's app needs to post periodic position reports to some central server which in turn broadcasts them back to all riders "subscribed" to the route. It's probably not a lot of network traffic but it does imply reliable server infrastructure which costs real money so maybe it's a paid feature or a pay-per-route feature or somesuch. Also of course it requires at least intermittent network connectivity during the ride but that is getting better every day, especially with satellite radios now being incorporated into newer smartphones.
Once you have the concept of a broadcast group for a route/trip, many enhancements are possible such as a "rider down" button which broadcasts that a rider has a problem at their location. It also means a trip leader can be far more adventurous in making dynamic decisions about taking detours to interesting turn offs or exploring new roads with an "I'm exploring this road" button or somesuch. You get the idea I hope. But maybe start off simple š
As a software infrastructure guy, building a broadcast group system on top of something like websockets seems pretty straightforward, but the integration into an app is where most of the work takes place.
While "Follow The Leader" might be the "minimal viable product", a whole new branch of functionality is possible when group riders are connected. And, considering Guido must be getting tired of fine-tuning route-tracking and map uploads by now, the idea of branching out into (ahem) uncharted territory might be as appealing as exploring new roads and locations!
Like many others, we run small group day rides (5-10 people, 100-500km) where the route has been uploaded prior to the trip. Typically we have a trip leader on the day who follows Scenic and the rest of us follow the leader using Scenic to confirm we're on the right path.
All very standard so far, but here's the dealio; sometime the trip leader has to detour, or wants to detour, but can't risk it because followers are following Scenic or, more often than we would like, the group gets split up because one of the riders has poor group riding skills or poor mirror scan technique or both. You could argue that better rider discipline would fix these problems but each ride is open to a generally larger group so we never quite know who is showing up on the day and what their group-riding skills are like. I have done a ton of group rides over the years, with a ton of different riders, which all start with explicit briefings, yet I have not seen group riding skills and scan skills improve over the years.
So, to the feature.
What if the real-time location of the trip leader is displayed on the app for everyone riding the same route? And what if the app had an option to say "follow leader" rather than "follow route"?
Yes, this is a big feature request as the leader's app needs to post periodic position reports to some central server which in turn broadcasts them back to all riders "subscribed" to the route. It's probably not a lot of network traffic but it does imply reliable server infrastructure which costs real money so maybe it's a paid feature or a pay-per-route feature or somesuch. Also of course it requires at least intermittent network connectivity during the ride but that is getting better every day, especially with satellite radios now being incorporated into newer smartphones.
Once you have the concept of a broadcast group for a route/trip, many enhancements are possible such as a "rider down" button which broadcasts that a rider has a problem at their location. It also means a trip leader can be far more adventurous in making dynamic decisions about taking detours to interesting turn offs or exploring new roads with an "I'm exploring this road" button or somesuch. You get the idea I hope. But maybe start off simple š
As a software infrastructure guy, building a broadcast group system on top of something like websockets seems pretty straightforward, but the integration into an app is where most of the work takes place.
While "Follow The Leader" might be the "minimal viable product", a whole new branch of functionality is possible when group riders are connected. And, considering Guido must be getting tired of fine-tuning route-tracking and map uploads by now, the idea of branching out into (ahem) uncharted territory might be as appealing as exploring new roads and locations!
Quote from Guido on 08.06.2024, 19:35Hi Mark,
Thanks for this suggestion and your insights. I understand, and I also see the potential for other features built on top of this
In fact, a feature like this has been requested more times. Not exactly like this but very similar. Itās already on the feature request list.
like you mentioned, this is not a small feature so I need a good chunk of time to work on this. I briefly looked into it before and indeed websockets seems the way to go. I donāt see too much difficulty with the server side of pushing the leader location to other users. Also displaying the leader position on the map should be pretty easy as a first MVP step.
I do see some difficulty with calculating the route from another rider to the leader. Such a route would have to be calculated very frequently as the leader and the other rider is moving all the time. Additionally, as everyone in the group can be at different positions, calculating a route to the leader could lead to different routes for different riders at different positions. Would not be much of a group ride if that would happen. Iād have to build some functionality around this. For example, at first do not calculate a route to the leader, unless a lost rider taps a button upon which he/she āgives upā on the planned route in return for getting to the leader as fast as possible. Thatās just an idea. Iād need to give it a bit more thought once I have time to dig into this.
In any caseā¦ itās on the list and Iām hoping to get around to this towards the end of this year, together with some other features that are needed for this (youād need a group ride feature to know who is actually taking part in the group ride, for example).
Ill save this thread in the list so that I can refer to it later when I start looking into this.
Thanks again and best regards,
Guido
Hi Mark,
Thanks for this suggestion and your insights. I understand, and I also see the potential for other features built on top of this
In fact, a feature like this has been requested more times. Not exactly like this but very similar. Itās already on the feature request list.
like you mentioned, this is not a small feature so I need a good chunk of time to work on this. I briefly looked into it before and indeed websockets seems the way to go. I donāt see too much difficulty with the server side of pushing the leader location to other users. Also displaying the leader position on the map should be pretty easy as a first MVP step.
I do see some difficulty with calculating the route from another rider to the leader. Such a route would have to be calculated very frequently as the leader and the other rider is moving all the time. Additionally, as everyone in the group can be at different positions, calculating a route to the leader could lead to different routes for different riders at different positions. Would not be much of a group ride if that would happen. Iād have to build some functionality around this. For example, at first do not calculate a route to the leader, unless a lost rider taps a button upon which he/she āgives upā on the planned route in return for getting to the leader as fast as possible. Thatās just an idea. Iād need to give it a bit more thought once I have time to dig into this.
In any caseā¦ itās on the list and Iām hoping to get around to this towards the end of this year, together with some other features that are needed for this (youād need a group ride feature to know who is actually taking part in the group ride, for example).
Ill save this thread in the list so that I can refer to it later when I start looking into this.
Thanks again and best regards,
Guido
Quote from MarkZigger on 08.06.2024, 21:44"I do see some difficulty with calculating the route from another rider to the leader. Such a route would have to be calculated very frequently as the leader and the other rider is moving all the time. Additionally, as everyone in the group can be at different positions, calculating a route to the leader could lead to different routes for different riders at different positions. Would not be much of a group ride if that would happen"
Understand. There is a lot to think about when the group gets dispersed and what actions the app offers which are a) intuitive to understand and b) don't make matters worse and c) are tolerable and cost-effective to implement.
The MVP of leader position (or even a plot showing the position of all riders in the group) is a great first step as it exercises the infrastructure and also gives us app users a simple experience from which we can hopefully provide useful feedback.
I confess to not having looked very hard, but I've used a whole bunch of different nav apps, devices and technology over the years and none of them address group riding very well, if at all. We all bodge together various solutions such as Bluetooth headsets and messaging apps and UHF radios and preloaded nav apps to keep a group ride working, but they are all an interop nightmare, have range issues and are disconnected from our route and location.
Maybe it's just me, but I think group rides are one of the more enjoyable aspects of riding - whether it's two mates heading off to a favoured camping site or a party of twenty-two riding our restored classics to a meetup - it seems like a rich market to address.
"I do see some difficulty with calculating the route from another rider to the leader. Such a route would have to be calculated very frequently as the leader and the other rider is moving all the time. Additionally, as everyone in the group can be at different positions, calculating a route to the leader could lead to different routes for different riders at different positions. Would not be much of a group ride if that would happen"
Understand. There is a lot to think about when the group gets dispersed and what actions the app offers which are a) intuitive to understand and b) don't make matters worse and c) are tolerable and cost-effective to implement.
The MVP of leader position (or even a plot showing the position of all riders in the group) is a great first step as it exercises the infrastructure and also gives us app users a simple experience from which we can hopefully provide useful feedback.
I confess to not having looked very hard, but I've used a whole bunch of different nav apps, devices and technology over the years and none of them address group riding very well, if at all. We all bodge together various solutions such as Bluetooth headsets and messaging apps and UHF radios and preloaded nav apps to keep a group ride working, but they are all an interop nightmare, have range issues and are disconnected from our route and location.
Maybe it's just me, but I think group rides are one of the more enjoyable aspects of riding - whether it's two mates heading off to a favoured camping site or a party of twenty-two riding our restored classics to a meetup - it seems like a rich market to address.
Quote from Mex on 09.06.2024, 00:43Hi Mark.
As a workaround, till Guido finds some time to work on this feature, which i requested as well. I called it wingman, so you see where your buddy, or your group members are.
We use Glympse. The leader shares his location with the group. When you get lost youāll see his position directly.
So share by presenig the āGā . Get lost? Just change the app shortly.
You may do a private group at the start of your ride. Thats it.
Ride safe, Mex
Hi Mark.
As a workaround, till Guido finds some time to work on this feature, which i requested as well. I called it wingman, so you see where your buddy, or your group members are.
We use Glympse. The leader shares his location with the group. When you get lost youāll see his position directly.
So share by presenig the āGā . Get lost? Just change the app shortly.
You may do a private group at the start of your ride. Thats it.
Ride safe, Mex
